gameofthronesfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Drowned God
Nice but... All the stuff abotu the Storm God hasn't been mentioned and should be moved to an "in the books" section.Gonzalo84 23:03, July 6, 2012 (UTC) :Okay, I don't want to just delete stuff out of hand.--The Dragon Demands 23:08, July 6, 2012 (UTC) Wait, according to this wiki, didn't the Ironborn form and begin believing the Drowned God after the Andal Invasion? In the Timeline it says; *'c. 4,000 BAL': By this time the Andal occupiers and native First Men of the Iron Islands have intermingled to form a distinct new group, the ironborn. The ironborn reject the worship of both the Old Gods and the Seven in favor of their own deity, the Drowned God. But, the quote from Yara Greyjoy says; "Since the '''Dawn Age', the ironborn have followed the Drowned God, who plucked fire from the sea, and made us to reave and sack, and carve our names in blood and song." So was it the Dawn Age or the Andal Invasion in which Ironborn formed and started belief in the Drowned God? In the Dawn Age there wasn't much but the Children of the Forest fighting against the First Men. 14:20, January 16, 2014 (UTC) :The ironborn were originally First Men who established on the Iron Islands and, isolated, developed their own culture and religion. This took place in the Dawn Age. Thousands and thousands of years later came the Andal invasion. The Andals who invaded the Iron Islands intermingled with the native ironborn, adopting the local culture and religion. :If you look closer, you'll see that the Drowned God/Storm God resembles the parents of Elenei, gods of the sea and the wind, in the legend of Durran. So its safe to asume the First Men, before adopting the Old Gods of the Forest as their own, originally worshipped elemental deities, which is mirrored in ironborn religion, the legend of Durran and, if you've read the books, in the religion of the Sistermen. :Also take into consideration that the ironborn religion predates historical records, so the ironborn essentially believe they worship the Drowned God since the beggining of time and that the Drowned God created them right there in the Iron Isles.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 14:36, January 16, 2014 (UTC) The timeline was simply in error. The ''modern ironborn have some Andal blood in them, that's the point being made, but otherwise, their culture was always like that, even before the Andal invasion. The invasing Andals ended up converting.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:38, January 16, 2014 (UTC) God of Death Perhaps the Drowned God is the ironborn aspect of Death? it is the same aspect of The Stranger in the Faith. The gods are influenced by the Seven-in-One traits. The Faceless Men consider this to be an incarnation of the Many-Faced God.--Nazul Rostello :It's a syncretic religion - which ever god has dominion over death. But the books never stated what the Drowned God analogue is - it isn't very common in Essos (the Free Cities have at least heard of the Faith of the Seven).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:19, January 19, 2014 (UTC) ::"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger". We know The Stranger is death, I suspect the Drowned God share the same aspect as Death. The followers of R'hllor and Death seem to possess magical abilities from their devotion to this type of monotheistic deity. Does the Storm God also the Lord of Light? If the Drowned God is Death then maybe so. But it isn't proven nor will it be sometime in the future. The return of the White Walkers seem to be connected to this theory. We have yet to see the Drowned Priests miraculously "wake" the sea dragons.--Nazul Rostello :: Please sign your talk-page posts.-- 21:37, January 19, 2014 (UTC) ::You're over-thinking this. There's been no specific mention in the books yet of how the God of Death applies to the Drowned God - and if we did mention it, we'd mention it on the God of Death page, not the Drowned God page. Similarly, we don't confuse matters by mentioning the God of Death under the "Stranger" section on the Faith of the Seven article.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:22, January 20, 2014 (UTC) Rival Storm God Wouldn't the Drowned God religion of the Iron Islands be properly termed as henotheistic, like that of the Dothraki Great Stallion, since it's founding myths include at least one deity whom they acknowledge but don't worship? --Fenrir51 (talk) 18:11, February 18, 2014 (UTC) :No. That isn't what "henotheism" means. Christianity is "monotheistic" but still believes that "Satan" opposes God. There might be an argument that it's Dualism, sort of like the Lord of Light religion (albeit the Lord of Light religion hates the Great Other). But the Drowned God is the only one they like; they think the Seven aren't real.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:28, March 10, 2014 (UTC) Henotheism vs. Monotheism I have changed the religion to henotheism. It is not a monotheistic religion as that is described as a religious form generally only acknowledging a single deity. Henotheistic religions follow a single (generally supreme and all-good) deity, while acknowledging there may or may not be other gods in the universe - or in fact, that there are other gods in the universe -, think zoroastrianism. This is not 'in any way, shape or form comparable to God vs Satan in the three Abrahamic faiths, as Satan is simply not described as a deity. He may act as one, but the simple fact is christians, jews and muslims believe that God is the one true god, and there's no dualism going on there. Please keep the discussion to this page if there is any. KarstenO (talk) 21:59, April 19, 2014 (UTC) You misunderstand what "Henotheism" means. "Henotheism" means acknowledging that deities from ''other belief systems may exist. Not that it's a belief system with multiple deities within it. The question is whether it is a polytheistic religion or not. Yes I think we might shift this to polytheism - we don't hear much about the...cosmology, of the Drowned God religion, but its implied it has numerous other subdeities and the like in it. It's basically Vikings. Also: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Drowned_God?diff=128056&oldid=119980 If you use the phrase "tl;dr" on this wiki again, even for internal communication with Admins, I will ban you from this wiki. That phrase is the death of thought. Nonetheless, while there is some confusion on the matter, I agree with your point that they sort of see the Storm God as another "god".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:08, April 19, 2014 (UTC) :You're absolutely right, sorry. I read something like how the DG system works on Wikipedia earlier, did a quick search and found henotheism, seemingly what I needed. I was wrong, it was monolatrism. :And no need to threaten with banning. It does not make anyone feel more welcome, even if jokingly. I meant it as a synonym to "conclusion" or "summary". KarstenO (talk) 23:25, April 19, 2014 (UTC) ::I wasn't threatening, that was just a heads-up not to use "tl;dr".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:33, April 19, 2014 (UTC) :::Would you agree with it being monolatrristic though? KarstenO (talk) 15:23, April 20, 2014 (UTC) ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism ...Wow, that's really a good point, actually. Yes, thank you, write it up and add it into the article (and we'll smooth it in later). I didn't know that term existed.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:39, April 20, 2014 (UTC) Misinterpretation? "Unlike the followers of the Faith of the Seven, the Drowned God religion does not prohibit same-sex relations. Queen Yara Greyjoy, a follower of the Drowned God, boisterously has had sex with at least one female prostitute. When Yara and Theon Greyjoy made their offer of alliance with Daenerys Targaryen at the Great Pyramid ofMeereen, Dany mockingly asked if their offer was free of any marriage demand with her. Yara replied that she never demands, but was up for anything." I think this passage needs to be re-worded. I admit that I haven't read Martin's orginal books, but putting aside any changes made from the novels to the TV series, I don't know of any instances where it says that the Drowned God religion is okay with same-sex relations. Besides, even though the Faith of the Seven does prohibit such relations, it doesn't stop that religion's followers from having them (i.e. Loras Tyrell, Oberyn Martell, Ellaria Sand ect...). I interpreted Yara's actions as being in this same mold; religious taboos are never an absolute barrier to lifestyle experimentation, and I think this wording sounds a little too authoritative, regardless of creative changes made by the show's writers. Also, I think people are reading too much into Yara's back-and-forth with Dany. They were attempting to form a military and political alliance. Even if flirting entered the equation, I honestly just saw the whole thing as diplomatic banter; they were trying to lighten a rather tense moment. I can make these wording changes myself, but I want some input into the isssue before I do. What do you all think? Gotlvr87 (talk) 02:52, September 3, 2016 (UTC) Perm to add BTS I want to add a BTS section that details the possibility that the Drowned God was inspired by H.P. Lovecraft. It would go something like this: "The Drowned God may have been inspired by the works of H.P. Lovecraft, particularly the fictional squidlike deity Cthulhu. The religious saying "What is dead may never die" is a strong indication of this, as a similar quote written by Lovecraft in reference to Cthulhu goes "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die." George R.R. Martin, who is a fan of Lovecraft, has not yet commented on this." ProtectorOfTheSevenKingdoms (talk) 03:36, November 26, 2018 (UTC) Homosexuality ''While the Faith of the Seven prohibits same-sex relationships (for both men and women), it is unclear what the attitude of the Drowned God religion is regarding male and/or female homosexuality. Yara Greyjoy is a prominent ship captain who openly engages in sex with both men and women. None of her followers seem to find this unusual, but it is unclear how typical this behavior is of Ironborn in general (see main article "Gender and Sexuality"). ''In "A Dance of Dragons", Victarion Greyjoy drowns twenty male prostitutes, regarding them as "unnatural creatures", but it is unclear whether he acted of religious zeal, or due to his personal opinion about homosexuality. At the same time, however, Victarion is aware that four of his men have raped a maester they took prisoner in the Shield Islands, and he does not care, making the distinction of specific practices even more difficult. ' With the practice of paying the iron price, I would wonder if the act of prostitution was seen as unnatural. Perhaps the idea of paying for sex, rather than taking it by force or conquest was considered blasphemous and unnatural by Victarion.